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	<title>Comments on: Which Trading Mistake Is Worse?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/</link>
	<description>Improve your trading!</description>
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		<title>By: John Forman</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-46071</link>
		<dc:creator>John Forman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-46071</guid>
		<description>eyal - I don&#039;t think I&#039;m missing any point. I&#039;ve just been addressing the discussion from the perspective in which I perceived the question to be asked - the perspective which Dave seems to have also been taking. Certainly, I don&#039;t disagree that each trader must determine during the trading system development and testing process whether they are more comfortable with a few more losing trades (false positives) or missing some big winners (false negatives). Basically you&#039;re talking about a low win rate system vs a high win rate system. Trend trading approaches tend to be the former and range systems tend to be the latter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>eyal &#8211; I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m missing any point. I&#8217;ve just been addressing the discussion from the perspective in which I perceived the question to be asked &#8211; the perspective which Dave seems to have also been taking. Certainly, I don&#8217;t disagree that each trader must determine during the trading system development and testing process whether they are more comfortable with a few more losing trades (false positives) or missing some big winners (false negatives). Basically you&#8217;re talking about a low win rate system vs a high win rate system. Trend trading approaches tend to be the former and range systems tend to be the latter.</p>
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		<title>By: eyal</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-46046</link>
		<dc:creator>eyal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-46046</guid>
		<description>John, what you&#039;re saying is valid but I think you&#039;re missing the point, probably because the terminology used in the original discussion is a bit vague.

To my mind, the &#039;mistake&#039; in this discussion isn&#039;t in not executing the plan but instead in setting the parameters of the plan. It&#039;s like choosing the level of heuristics test on your antivirus. Too sensitive and you get false positives (mistake in identification / taking bad trades), set it to not sensitive enough and you&#039;ll miss out real viruses (mistake in non-identification / missing good trades). So the issue comes about before we even get to the plan execution, it is about which approach a trader is more comfortable with when designing his plan and what would yield better results in the long term. In that respect I think it&#039;s up to the individual and the specific system they&#039;re trading, how it backtests, forward-tests etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, what you&#8217;re saying is valid but I think you&#8217;re missing the point, probably because the terminology used in the original discussion is a bit vague.</p>
<p>To my mind, the &#8216;mistake&#8217; in this discussion isn&#8217;t in not executing the plan but instead in setting the parameters of the plan. It&#8217;s like choosing the level of heuristics test on your antivirus. Too sensitive and you get false positives (mistake in identification / taking bad trades), set it to not sensitive enough and you&#8217;ll miss out real viruses (mistake in non-identification / missing good trades). So the issue comes about before we even get to the plan execution, it is about which approach a trader is more comfortable with when designing his plan and what would yield better results in the long term. In that respect I think it&#8217;s up to the individual and the specific system they&#8217;re trading, how it backtests, forward-tests etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Treat the Disease, Not the Symptoms &#124; The Essentials of Trading</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45863</link>
		<dc:creator>Treat the Disease, Not the Symptoms &#124; The Essentials of Trading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45863</guid>
		<description>[...] for visiting!John Forman - The Essentials of Trading authorI&#8217;ve recently been involved in a discussion on the StockTickr blog on the subject of trading mistakes. The question of the original post is whether it&#8217;s a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for visiting!John Forman &#8211; The Essentials of Trading authorI&#8217;ve recently been involved in a discussion on the StockTickr blog on the subject of trading mistakes. The question of the original post is whether it&#8217;s a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Edwards-Marche'</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45678</link>
		<dc:creator>James Edwards-Marche'</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45678</guid>
		<description>I completely agree with John on this...after 18-months of trading I&#039;ve finally arrived at the point were I know, at least for me, that you must have a plan- and stick to it. Otherwise you&#039;re prey to your own emotions and environmental factors (namely the ebb and flow of the markets). The issues of &quot;missing good trades&quot; and &quot;taking bad trades&quot; becomes non-existant when you have a system/defined plan. The question I ask now is, &quot;Am I following the plan?&quot; I&#039;d much rather take a loss following it rather than make gains breaking it...

Interesting topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree with John on this&#8230;after 18-months of trading I&#8217;ve finally arrived at the point were I know, at least for me, that you must have a plan- and stick to it. Otherwise you&#8217;re prey to your own emotions and environmental factors (namely the ebb and flow of the markets). The issues of &#8220;missing good trades&#8221; and &#8220;taking bad trades&#8221; becomes non-existant when you have a system/defined plan. The question I ask now is, &#8220;Am I following the plan?&#8221; I&#8217;d much rather take a loss following it rather than make gains breaking it&#8230;</p>
<p>Interesting topic.</p>
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		<title>By: John Forman</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45468</link>
		<dc:creator>John Forman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45468</guid>
		<description>Pattern recognition &lt;b&gt;can&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt; be applied every time and it has nothing at all to do with being &quot;an exact science&quot;. The variability comes from the fact that the patterns are being used to determine likely future behavior in price. The point, though, is that the pattern creates odds of long-run profits.

To extend your metaphor, a doctor also looks for patterns to make a diagnosis. The advantage is that he is attempting to figure out what is going on now, not really to figure out what is likely to happen next (though, that then becomes the carry-on), and he can keep testing and altering the diagnosis as new data becomes available. If he repeatedly kills his patients, though, because he mis-reads the charts and doesn&#039;t know that the MRI means, the medical board will conclude he doesn&#039;t know what he&#039;s doing.&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pattern recognition <b>can</b><b> be applied every time and it has nothing at all to do with being &#8220;an exact science&#8221;. The variability comes from the fact that the patterns are being used to determine likely future behavior in price. The point, though, is that the pattern creates odds of long-run profits.</p>
<p>To extend your metaphor, a doctor also looks for patterns to make a diagnosis. The advantage is that he is attempting to figure out what is going on now, not really to figure out what is likely to happen next (though, that then becomes the carry-on), and he can keep testing and altering the diagnosis as new data becomes available. If he repeatedly kills his patients, though, because he mis-reads the charts and doesn&#8217;t know that the MRI means, the medical board will conclude he doesn&#8217;t know what he&#8217;s doing.</b></p>
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		<title>By: eyal</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45466</link>
		<dc:creator>eyal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45466</guid>
		<description>If only pattern recognition was an exact science that one could apply consistently every single time :-) A doctor who mis-diagnoses a disease isn&#039;t necessarily not knowing what he&#039;s doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only pattern recognition was an exact science that one could apply consistently every single time <img src='http://blog.stocktickr.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  A doctor who mis-diagnoses a disease isn&#8217;t necessarily not knowing what he&#8217;s doing.</p>
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		<title>By: John Forman</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45465</link>
		<dc:creator>John Forman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45465</guid>
		<description>Dave - I disagree that discretionary traders cannot &quot;lock down&quot; their plan. I would dub myself a discretionary trader. You absolutely can define your system. It might only be in writing or something you can express verbally and not something you can mathematically quantify, but you can define it. As such, you will know whether you break your trading rules or not.

If, as you say, you are mis-applying the pattern recognition it implies you don&#039;t really know what you&#039;re doing. That&#039;s a whole other issue all together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8211; I disagree that discretionary traders cannot &#8220;lock down&#8221; their plan. I would dub myself a discretionary trader. You absolutely can define your system. It might only be in writing or something you can express verbally and not something you can mathematically quantify, but you can define it. As such, you will know whether you break your trading rules or not.</p>
<p>If, as you say, you are mis-applying the pattern recognition it implies you don&#8217;t really know what you&#8217;re doing. That&#8217;s a whole other issue all together.</p>
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		<title>By: eyal</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45459</link>
		<dc:creator>eyal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45459</guid>
		<description>John - I understand what you&#039;re saying and in large part agree that at the end of the day, at least in theory, the plan should govern this and the real mistake would be whether one deviated from their plan or not.

I think the difficulty is in the practical integration of this into a plan in case of discretionary traders. It is close to impossible to completely lock down the trading rules and hence the plan. A certain level of &#039;intuition&#039; or flexibility or &#039;pattern recognition&#039; is in play which isn&#039;t exact science. Otherwise everyone would just program their rules into some s/w and &#039;go to the beach&#039;. Hence the mistakes are in fact just mis-applying the pattern recognition.

Happy to hear your thoughts on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8211; I understand what you&#8217;re saying and in large part agree that at the end of the day, at least in theory, the plan should govern this and the real mistake would be whether one deviated from their plan or not.</p>
<p>I think the difficulty is in the practical integration of this into a plan in case of discretionary traders. It is close to impossible to completely lock down the trading rules and hence the plan. A certain level of &#8216;intuition&#8217; or flexibility or &#8216;pattern recognition&#8217; is in play which isn&#8217;t exact science. Otherwise everyone would just program their rules into some s/w and &#8216;go to the beach&#8217;. Hence the mistakes are in fact just mis-applying the pattern recognition.</p>
<p>Happy to hear your thoughts on this.</p>
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		<title>By: John Forman</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45366</link>
		<dc:creator>John Forman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45366</guid>
		<description>Dave - To my mind they don&#039;t have two seperate problems. They both have the same one. For some reason they each are unable to follow their trading plan. The question which would then need to be answered for both is &quot;Why?&quot; Skipping trades would suggest a lack of faith in the system. Putting on bad trades could be the result of boredom (system needs to generate more signals) or anticipating signals or something else.

Note, when I say &quot;system&quot; I don&#039;t necessarily mean some mechanical thing. I just mean whatever method the trader uses to identify and time the entry of positions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave &#8211; To my mind they don&#8217;t have two seperate problems. They both have the same one. For some reason they each are unable to follow their trading plan. The question which would then need to be answered for both is &#8220;Why?&#8221; Skipping trades would suggest a lack of faith in the system. Putting on bad trades could be the result of boredom (system needs to generate more signals) or anticipating signals or something else.</p>
<p>Note, when I say &#8220;system&#8221; I don&#8217;t necessarily mean some mechanical thing. I just mean whatever method the trader uses to identify and time the entry of positions.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-45365</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 20:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.stocktickr.com/2008/02/06/which-trading-mistake-is-worse/#comment-45365</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments, guys.

I&#039;ve given this some more thought and at first I was convinced that taking bad trades was worse.  Having thought back on some of my worse days, I know that missing a good trade often leads to other mistakes including taking bad trades.

It&#039;s no doubt a difficult balance - taking every good setup but not overtrading.

To John&#039;s point - since every trade setup is different and discretionary traders are not computers there has to be some leeway for mistakes, however small.

John - let&#039;s say you had two traders approach you.  One realizes they have a problem skipping good trades and the other realizes they have a problem taking too many bad trades.  All things being equal - which one has the more serious problem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, guys.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve given this some more thought and at first I was convinced that taking bad trades was worse.  Having thought back on some of my worse days, I know that missing a good trade often leads to other mistakes including taking bad trades.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s no doubt a difficult balance &#8211; taking every good setup but not overtrading.</p>
<p>To John&#8217;s point &#8211; since every trade setup is different and discretionary traders are not computers there has to be some leeway for mistakes, however small.</p>
<p>John &#8211; let&#8217;s say you had two traders approach you.  One realizes they have a problem skipping good trades and the other realizes they have a problem taking too many bad trades.  All things being equal &#8211; which one has the more serious problem?</p>
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